Well, I used to be istherehope but now I'm nearlythere. I guess that's a reflection of how I feel. I have finally detached well and truly.

What I need is some advice on what to expect next.

H is cycling wildly from month to month, but on a very regular basis. We are now in one of those cycles where he wants to work on our relationship. He is worried that I am seeing someone else (I'm not), he is worried about how he will lose his R with the children if we D - he works away from home and currently sees them every weekend but this would change if we D, particularly as it is very likely that he will move overseas with his job. Because I have detached properly, I think he sees that I am moving on and maybe realises that time is short. I don't know about this last point, i am assuming, which is a very dangerous thing to do.

He has said that he knows what he has to do to end the R with OW completely and has made the initial break. I have no way of checking whether this is the case and basically i don't really want to because it means I become sucked back in to the drama and anyway it's his decision, I'll find out soon enough.

What I need to know is what I may be contending with in the next few months. I know that he will suffer symptoms of withdrawal - how can I support him through this? I fully expect him to start the next cycle in a week or so's time and return to OW but I am hoping that perhaps he is committed enough to our R not to do this. How can I support him through this phase of temptation?

He is an absolute bundle of emotion at the moment, his head is spinning, he alternates between blaming me for things I've done this last year, being very afraid of the future and wanting us to be together as a family again. He's mentioned counselling but then backed off a bit because I am assuming (that word again) he is frightened of being blamed. He has talked about our future and what we will do next year, he is taking an interest in the house which before he always talked about as mine. This seems like he is trying to reconnect but I just don't know for sure!
He has mentioned changing his job and his flat to make a new start but hasn't done anything concrete about it yet, (he knows the children and I will never come to his current flat because OW has been there) - my gut instinct is that he's hedging his bets in case the R doesn't work quite the way he hopes or that he can't leave OW, but maybe it is fear again - I could do with some help on this! Is fear a major part of MLC coming out of his cave? Is fear of the damage done a significant factor in H's mind? Each time he enters this phase of the cycle he seems to be coming closer and closer to us, but then backing away again at the last minute - he sounds ready this time but I don't know if he really is! I know - patience and patience again.

I know what I am going to do and that is to continue with what I have been doing the last few weeks - I have changed tack slightly in that I have now placed all responsibility for what he does, thinks, says at his feet. I can change nothing about him or his decisions, it is all his choice. I have told him this and he knows he is cycling and desperately wants to find a way out.

What a tightrope! I have to balance being detached and moving on with being committed enough to work on our relationship - how is this possible? I do not want to be sucked back into his cycle and have my heart all trampled on again, however I do not want to inadvertantly sabotage the R.

Is there a common sequence of events/processes common to returning H's and reconciliation or is it just completely new territory? I wish I could see what is going on in his head and if the R thoughts are winning over the others!!

All I can offer is ((((hugs)))) and prayers... My H is still living with OW #2... I don't know a lot obout the process of reconciliation or what it looks like. What I do know is that my H cylced too... A few months after he left by fluke I noticed that monthly he was mean (always when I was PMSing)... So I went back through all the email correspondence we had exchanged, and with memory was able to just mark down a day followed by a high, med, low... When I was all done I put them in date order and low and behold he was cycling monthly... He doesn't live here any more so I don't see him enough to know how long his cycles are now, but I do know he is still cycling...

The problem is Phoenix, that he has told me he has got rid of her but the trust between us is so low that I don't really believe this. Besides which, he has said this in the past and lo and behold a week or so later she's back again.

There is no way that I can verify what he has said except by asking, because he lives and works 300 miles away during the week. I have to wait and see that he walks the walk - I don't want to trust that he is telling the truth this time, because I am allowing myself to become vulnerable to betrayal again. This means that he's back to cycling and his usual behaviour. Surely he has to prove that he is trustworthy!

I have just recently got out of living in limbo and moved onwards and here he is trying to reel me in again - but surely there needs to be commitment from both of us?

I've told him that there will be no counselling if there is still another person involved in this marriage, I have made myself crystal clear on this point (at least I have repeated it in as many different ways as possible!)

So, he SAYS that she is out of our marriage. He says he will do the things necessary to work on our relationship but I am very wary of trusting him.

I guess that if he is willing to do the work then nothing will stop him. If I am worried that anything I say or do will put him off, and he uses it as an excuse to leave then that's a clear message in itself.

The most reliable predictor of a person's future performance is his relevant past performance.



Let me suggest that you "call the shots", now.... you have to formulate a PLAN for the recovery of your
marriage with VERIFIABLE MILESTONES. I think you should lay this out "on the table" for him, and state that there will be ZERO CAPITULATION on any of these terms. You want the marriage? This is how you get it back. No other way.

Let me suggest to you a plan that I might employ, were it me in your situation.

1) there will first be 6 months, during which there will be NO CONTACT to the OW. I will verify your whereabouts, your computer activity, your phone activity. You will submit this information to me freely and without obfuscation.

2) you will answer every one of my questions regarding your activities WHEN I ASK THEM....for the rest of our lives. You will not volunteer information to me. Answer the question directly with a truthful answer. You have made a mess of me, psychologically, and you must help me repair it UNTIL it is repaired FOR AS LONG AS THAT TAKES.

3) you will not blame me for your adultery. It is not my fault. Never has been, never will be. This was YOUR CHOICE, and your choice alone.

4) after this 6 month period, in whith there has been no contact, we will begin counseling. We will go to the counselor UNTIL I FEEL READY to stop. You will not miss any sessions, unless you bring a doctor's excuse to the next one. I will limit this counseling period to one year, or when the counselor and I both feel that we are ready to end it.

5) You will sign, before witnesses, a behavioural contract that states that you will forfeit all rights to all marital property and to custodial rights to your children if you ever commit adultery again.

6) We will renew our marriage vows in a public ceremony before witnesses, at least one of whom knows about your adultery.

It's very simple to verify...check out Shirley Glass's book NOT Just Friends....she speaks of a husband in these circumstances writing a letter to the OW breaking it off, and it gets mailed BY both of you. You could even include a note asking her to respect your marriage.

If you suggest this to him and he goes ballistic then you can be pretty sure he has NOT shut the relationship down...he may even accuse you of NOT trusting him…and THAT would be simply a smoke screen…AND rather humorous under the circumstances…they betray our trust and then get self righteous about how WE don’t trust THEM!

Think of it this way….you have a lovely home and for SOME reason your husband decided to populate it with cockroaches….the cockroaches are infesting your food and your house, you point out you don’t WANT cockroaches…he says he NEEDS cockroaches…he accuses you of FORCING him to bring cockroaches in…you tell him that either he gets rid of the cockroaches OR he leaves….he tells you he has taken care of it…BUT there still seems to be an influence on him that STRONGLY suggests that he still is interested in having cockroaches around.

Now would you just sit there and believe him or would you be checking the pantry to see if there are telltale signs of cockroaches? Would you not ask to SEE proof that he has called an exterminator? Would it be a smart thing to do to stock the pantry with new food until you KOW there are no cockroaches?

You are worried about what will happen in the future when you don’t even know if he is willing to have a future…words are cheap…actions are what count…other than words….what have you got?

This is a WONDERFUL way of looking at things.

OK, cockroaches are good.
I really do not like cockroaches messing up my home.

I think a plan of action is a good idea too. I know and he knows that it's not going to be easy and a few milestones should make it seem more achievable I think.

In the last conversation we had he was talking about 'seeing how it goes', 'taking things steady', 'not rushing things'. Whilst I agree with these thoughts in principle, I am going to be happier with more positive action. He has to do the work. I don't see why I should sit back and take things at a pace he dictates. I have needs too, and he has to recognise those.

I'm going to try and put together a plan/timetable..............

You should not accept his pace. The fact is, he ALREADY made VOWS before God and witnesses that he would "love, honor, and cherish" you and that he would "keep himself only unto" you till death do you part.

There SHOULD be NO HESITATION on his part about doing the things he already VOWED that he would do.

He should now ACCEPT YOUR PACE and YOUR program for the restoration of his marriage. That is, if he wants it restored.

That being said, he must also be able to believe that he is not simply under a "life sentence"... if he doesn't believe that restoration is possible, he won't attempt it. No one wants to expend his efforts and his pain for nothing.

That's why I believe a fixed, measurable program with time limits is the best way to go. It's also best conducted under the facilitation of a neutral third party such as a counselor.

I will save this, should the situation ever arise where H wants to reconcile...

Quote Phopenix.....Yes there are….if he is determined to work on the relationship and he HAS gotten the OW out of his life he will be in turmoil because he has gotten rid of a bandage that made him feel better and it will take time for him to adjust.



I think getting rid of the OW pales into insignificance compared to what is required after the bandage dissapears !! It is a horrible, horrible and indescribable time.



Have a good day



Ala

Sounds good in theory TF , but I sure can't see any human being signing it , IMO . Even an innocent person would have a hard time with that one . I , one who has never cheated would be afraid that anyone could make it look like I was messing around . I know the WS has cheated , lied etc. but still , I sure couldn't see my EXH signing that and he is not the sharpest crayon in the box .

Speaking from experience, as someone whose husband "claimed" he had ended it with OW, but went behind my back contacting her for another 6 or 7 months whilst pretending to me to be wanting to reconcile and repair our marriage........I caught him out several times breaching the no contact, and yes it was HIS version of no contact as in telling me it was over, not Shirley Glass recommendation, the trust was shattered completely.

How do you trust again? Well, trust is earnt........its not an entitlement. If I had my time over again I would insist on the letter being posted with both of us knowing the contents and posting it together. When I suggested it to him at the time he refused saying he would end it himself, he didnt need me to control that, he became angry I didnt trust him ........dumb ole me believed him that he had ended it with OW. I should have seen that sign smack me right in the face but I wanted to believe what he was saying and that clouded my better judgement to listen to my gut.........as time wore on I didnt believe one word he said, I read his actions.......they were a far more reliable indicator of what he was up to.

Phoenix is spot on.......there is NO mistaking the intent of a man who wants to repair his marriage and his actions MUST speak louder than his words because his words havent been worth a piece of shit during this. When my H was still connected to the gargoyle whore his words were lies, and his actions spoke volumes. When he finally realised, when I pointed out to him, that he was going to end up being with her even if he didnt want to, because he would not have me anymore........things changed.

Lemme tell ya, there is no mistaking the intent of someone who is truly remorseful for their rotten lousy actions.......you wont need to ask us, you will feel the effort made well before you can believe one word that comes out of his mouth.

Mini

Yes it is Alan, but right now she doesn’t know if the bandage has been or will be ripped off.
It has to be admitted that as women, we view the OW as the problem and we tend to think that once her influence is gone that everything CAN work out AND by assuming that we wander where angels would fear to tread….but before we can even contemplate going down that path we have to KNOW that “SHE” is gone.

Hi Phoenix



Yes I understand that, I just wanted to post from a man's perspective that the real hard yards come after the OW is got rid of. That's when we face the mirror and decide who we want looking back at us. And even after making that decision, making it happen is incredibly difficult . During this time I was and can still be, completely off the planet, dealing with demons and God knows what else that are inside ME.

Not quite sure if that makes sense but I hope so*smiles*



You all have a good day



Alan

Now this is truly helpful, alangeol, thanks for your input.

I know that the first enormous hurdle is him severing his connection to OW.

I know that he has no idea what he is in for emotionally after this is done, he is still in denial pretty much over what is happening, although he does recognise the cycling and emotional turmoil. I know that because I am not reacting to the situation as much, he is finding it very difficult to cast blame for his behaviour in my direction. In our conversations I can still see that he is looking for straws in my behaviour that might give him a 'get out clause' , but there aren't any. So any decision will be his responsibility alone. He doesn't like that. He is still involved in 'distraction' behaviours as far as I can see - mostly health related, tests for this that and the other and now surgery for his short sightedness! But there is only so much he can do and eventually there will come a time when he has to face his demons - he can either run away again or work through it. Only time will tell if he is ready for that. The consequences of him running away again are now very serious and he realises this. He has said himself that D is unworkable for him with regard to seing the children, finances and controlling what I will do, because it is likely that he will be several thousand miles away in another country and I certainly intend to live my life my way, not as he thinks I will! I have lots of small changes planned for me and the kids!

My original post was meant to be about this aftermath, I fully expect that it will be a very, very difficult time for him and us. I want to be prepared for this and support us through it as much as possible, but don't have any idea what to expect! I know I am jumping the gun a bit because of the OW sitch but I've always liked to be prepared! I can deal with him being off the planet, acting like an alien occasionally as long as OW is gone because then it becomes a situation between us only and I have dealt with this before, I am in familiar territory. Normally we are a good team when it comes to dealing with his depressive episodes and boy, has he had a few of those! It's the OW bandage that is stopping his progress in this case, but is he strong enough to get rid of it and excise the tumour!!!!

Mini137 - I'm prepared for the same situation you describe, but am hoping that he is committed enough not to do that - he knows where I stand, he knows what the consequences will be. I am only willing to be his support when I am satisfied that OW is well and truly gone. The only way I can verify this is by asking, but my gut is a very good indicator and I will know eventually. The D papers are still being filed as we speak, the process can be stopped at any time but it's not something I will do until I am sure! In the UK, the process is very slow, luckily, and I've told my solicitor that there is no hurry.

I did like the idea about writing a letter together, I think it's still possible to do this as a way to give some final closure, if he is willing. If not then that also gives the message that he is not ready. I am still on my path, but it's a flexible one and can be changed when needed.

Ok, so one day at a time............

Absolutely !!!!!

Mini

Alan, your input is so helpful........yes, it does make sense, I saw this in my husband, the struggle he had coming to terms with himself. It was very hard, in fact I think the hardest thing he has ever done.....and I knew there was nothing I could do to help other than be there for him when he needed me.

For a woman in this sitch, dealing with the spouse's MLC is manageable.........its dealing with MLC, the OW and the ensuing nastiness that entails from a spouse unwilling to face their demons, that isnt possible.

Mini

OW is well and truly gone. The only way I can verify this is by asking, but my gut is a very good indicator and I will know eventually.



I have found this aspect very hard thing to deal with, because my wife also has her "GUT INSTINCTS" and will tell her that there is still something going on with OW and this just isn't the case. Later she will apologise BUT ............when these allegations surface they are devastating for me.I have fought myself so hard to regain some credibility and honor in my eyes , to be told not once, but many times, that that honor and credibility is not there by my wife is a totally negative exeperince. This more than anything else has led to our trial seperation.



I write this only as a warning...please if you make these allegations make sure they are founded in something substantial, unfound allegations are virtually impossible to disprove and what should be a time for reconcilliation and rebuilding becomes a time of continual reminders and punsihemnt for a mis deed no one can now change.



During the emotional turmoil that goes on after OW goes, your husband will probably do all sorts of strange things, forget things, but that I think is positive he is starting to fight himself. Please do not take this as a sign that the OW is still there. Check of course.



Believe me he is about to enter hell and you can't help him fight his way out and please don't try either. I suppose you are in for a hard ride too, look after yourself and yours and let H fight his battles.



Sorry its not a happy, positive post, but in my opinion it reprsents the truth....we are responsible totally for our affairs, but no one, absolutely no one, would wish this bloody MLC ( or whatever you wish to call it) on anyone. I don't know any man who wakes up and says...I like to have a MLC today. It doesn't work that way it sneaks up in the night and the battle starts and to say the least ...it the pitts!! We didn't ask for this " IT JUST ARRIVED"



Have I got this thing beat yet...not on your life, but I am sure as hell trying !! It is NOT going to rule my life.!



Have a good day and all



Alan

This is a two edged sword, your wife in some way expected that just by your presence everything would go back to what she considers normal...I don't think she yet understands that the OW was not as great a factor as she attributed to her role in what happened.

Sadly, if she doesn’t soon realize this, she could end up doing more damage to the marriage Thant your actions ever could have.

Thanks for these replies - it is so helpful to get other viewpoints.

Mini137 - you are sooo right - I can deal with anything else, but having an OW is unacceptable. I have made this as clear as I possibly can as well as the consequences.

Alangeol - this is hard, OK maybe my gut instincts are not always right but he always leaves clues when OW is around - so I will just be patient and time will tell. I really want to thank you for your input as it helps to confirm what I might or might not be able to do to live through this situation!

I've been here for about a year now and have gone through the full range of behaviours and reactions, done all the wrong things and maybe some right ones along the way. Last November I just started looking out for myself and the kids. I still intend to make that my priority. I know that it is so easy to frighten/push him away as he tries to struggle through this and I want to be able to let him be as much as possible.

Did you ever ask for help in your sitch? Were you able or willing to communicate what you needed?

I am not worried that your post is not happy or optimistic, I know that the outcome still hangs in the balance but I am going to see it through. I am here with my eyes wide open, preparing for my future that might be with or without him.

I am really grateful that you feel able to post on this thread and your insights are worth more than a thousand books! I really hope that you eventually find some peace in your journey.

Phoenix - perhaps I am in danger of attributing a greater role to OW too. This is so fundamental to me - that we have fought so many battles through this marriage with his depression, medical problems, job situation, bringing up the children, marital ups and downs - that he would turn to someone else for solace or support feels like the ultimate betrayal. We have always been a team before but now that he sees that our relationship is the problem I am factored out of the equation!!

I wish I could truly believe that she is just a band aid, that their relationship is just serving as a temporary remedy to his MLC feelings. I find that the hardest thing to deal with- this is the one thing that will end our marriage if he allows it to continue any longer.

nearlythere how you doing? How are things going?

Slurpins and Hope,

FF

[quote name='nearlythere' date='Jul 15 2008, 11:33 PM' post='122051']
Now this is truly helpful, alangeol, thanks for your input.

He is still involved in 'distraction' behaviours as far as I can see - mostly health related, tests for this that and the other and now surgery for his short sightedness!

Is this a pattern? My husband is getting to be quite the hypocondriac since mlc set in. Maybe justifiable complaints but always looking for a problem, test after test, exrays, surgery etc and then wanting hand holding.

Piper, my xh's ow was in the medical field.....go figure.

Isn't it fitting we had them in the prime of their lives, youth, looks, energy, all night love making.... and now the ow gets to quote I believe nosbar, the "Bat Shit Crazy" hormone cycling, viagra popping, angry, nutso mid life criser. They are too self centered to really care about anyone but their needs and wants. Not my idea of a match made in heaven but there you go..

Well IDK, I imagine he's doing alright for himself. But then, we're far removed from each other's live at this point.

It has been a mighty long time since I posted this.....

Bat Shit Crazy




the infamous batboy of urban legends